operations:governance:board_minutes:2017-12-decisions [Hacman DEMO ONLY]

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# 20171-12 Decisions

## Decisions taken 2017-12 not during a formal board meeting

## Hetzner

**Ayes:** All

Bob Clough, [22.11.17 08:21]
How do we feel about getting a server from hetzner for all hacman web infrastructure? Website / LDAP / Email Sending / discourse etc

Bob Clough, [22.11.17 08:21]
Would be about €27 a month ongoing cost

Bob Clough, [22.11.17 08:22]
And replace the hacman VPS, the droplet running list, and the LDAP server on my dedicated servet

Conor, [22.11.17 09:39]
Dumb question - What would be the benefit?

Tamarisk, [22.11.17 09:40]
From a purely selfish pov that I could stop paying for the discourse server ;)

Conor, [22.11.17 09:41]
That's a totally good reason!

Tamarisk, [22.11.17 09:41]
But that aside @thinkl33t can you expand your case?

Bob Clough, [22.11.17 09:51]
As we're getting more infrastructure (MCP, LDAP server etc) we're needing more VMs - I've been hosting these on my server, but it seems a bad idea to keep critical infrastructure on a server only I have access to. Additionally, If we have a dedicated server we can do it properly using VMs and docker containers so we don't end up in the same situation we're in with the VPS, with it being an unmaintainable mess.

Conor, [22.11.17 09:57]
Sounds good. Again pardon any ignorance - so we move stuff from Bob's server to this server, and relieve Tas from paying for the forum. Will that change what happens when the space looses internet at all?

Bob Clough, [22.11.17 09:58]
No, it'll still be remotely hosted in a datacenter

Tamarisk, [22.11.17 10:01]
Why Hetzner in particular?

Conor, [22.11.17 10:02]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
Cool - I didn't know if your infrastructure was currently in the space. Sounds good,

Bob Clough, [22.11.17 10:02]
They're cheap for high spec machines, and I know their support is good. Willing to look at other suppliers.

Tamarisk, [22.11.17 10:04]
Don’t go nuts but it would be good to see what 2-3 comparable packages would cost. (In the same currency preferably :). We have to be able to justify our choices to the membership (and Kimball).

Chris Hilliard, [22.11.17 12:16]
Deeply agree this is a good idea :)

Bob Clough, [22.11.17 12:25]
I did a bit of looking - cheapest dedicated server, or best server we can get for £30 per month:
Hetzner - 4 Cores, 32Gb RAM, 2TBx2 HDD - €28 per month
Fasthosts - 2 Cores, 4GB RAM, 500Gb Storage - £30 per month for 3 months, £40 per month thereafter
Ovh - 4 Core, 32Gb RAM, 2TBx2 HDD - £66.99 + vat per month

Tamarisk, [22.11.17 13:01]
OK so Hetzner it is then.

Tamarisk, [22.11.17 15:43]
OK proper vote on Bob's let's buy a box proposition:

Tamarisk, [22.11.17 15:43]
Aye

Greg Morris, [22.11.17 15:43]
Aye

Bob Clough, [22.11.17 15:43]
Aye

Chris Hilliard, [22.11.17 15:47]
Aye

Conor, [22.11.17 15:49]
Aye

## Bandsaw

**Ayes:** All

Chris Hilliard, [30.11.17 15:04]
TL:DR - the bandsaw is out of commission at the moment for safety reasons, and the replacement part costs £35 inc shipping. This is over consumables and repair budget, and as such, I'm requesting permission to order the parts. 

--- Explanation ---

Greg is saying that they seem to be impossible to take off, due to being molded on, and from what I understand, he may be right - 
http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=920

They suggest that a company that can re-machine printing rollers may well be up for doing the work of refurbishing them, such as this company based in manchester - http://www.bsbrollers.co.uk/

A US company appears to make tyres to go over the current wheels, for about £35 a set including shipping from the US - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-BLUE-MAX-HEAVY-DUTY-URETHANE-BAND-SAW-TIRES-TYRES-FOR-ELU-3501-A1-BAND-SAW/261233629994?hash=item3cd2bcdb2a:g:6vsAAOSwK6RZJX6l

Replacing both wheels as a whole item would cost £110, and for that we might just be able to pick up a second hand model of the same machine

I think the US slip-on option is likely to be the least hassle and the cheapest, but I'm unsure on longevity

Tamarisk, [30.11.17 15:06]
@gregmorris can you comment please?

Greg Morris, [30.11.17 15:08]
I looked at the bandsaw, and was not happy with the state of the wheels after they were overtightened, as the blade was not running smoothly on the wheels. I took the machine out of order for safety reasons.

Bob Clough, [30.11.17 15:10]
Agreed, it diddnt look good on monday when i was in but i diddnt have time to have a proper look.

Greg Morris, [30.11.17 15:10]
I don't know much about bandsaw wheels/tyres - @thinkl33t might have more to say

Bob Clough, [30.11.17 15:11]
Replacement tyres seems like the best option, i'd go for those personally

Bob Clough, [30.11.17 15:11]
We'll need to either sand back or scrape off the original

Tamarisk, [30.11.17 15:13]
Ok I’m happy with that: aye.

Bob Clough, [30.11.17 15:14]
[In reply to Tamarisk]
Aye

Greg Morris, [30.11.17 15:15]
Aye (but I'm not fitting them)

Greg Morris, [30.11.17 15:19]
Before buying them please double check the diameter

Chris Hilliard, [30.11.17 15:27]
They are spec'ed to our specific model of machine I believe, but if someone could take a photo of the boilerplate that would help

Chris Hilliard, [30.11.17 15:28]
I'll ask on the main group

Bob Clough, [30.11.17 16:16]
Worth checking with the seller that they're compatible, since we're a 3401-A1 not a 3501-A1

Conor, [30.11.17 16:17]
If we've got the money to spend, then I have no issue with that. Can we be cheeky first and ask if they'll knock a few pounds off as we're a community group?

Conor, [30.11.17 16:17]
asking has never hurt!

Bob Clough, [30.11.17 16:17]
Worth a go

## Fire extinguishers

**Ayes:** All

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:02]
Fire extinguisher placement suggestion and cost - 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15YTwdjqdVvKMTmNauu8MmUleMTRw3P4M5diZvUnNb-M/edit?usp=sharing

Conor, [03.12.17 19:30]
Do we need the final laser one of we have a CO2?

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:33]
The laser one can't be removed, and will be auto-firing. Also, the CO2 is better for electronics etc if somthing goes wrong on the electronics bench

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:33]
We don't want to hose down a load of expensive electronics equipment like oscilloscopes and PSUs if we don't have to

Conor, [03.12.17 19:33]
I reckon we could save £80 by having a shared CO2 one - we also have a water spray bottle by the laser for small fires on delicate materials

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:34]
There have been fairly serious laser fires in other hackspaces, that have totaled lasers very quickly

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:35]
Also, opening the laser cover and feeding the fire gulps of O2 isn't the best idea necessarily

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:35]
If a fire is that big, you shouldn't be fighting it, you should be leaving.

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:36]
Fair and valid point

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:36]
Maybe taking a fire extinguisher with you to batter any doors down :p

Conor, [03.12.17 19:36]
Hopefully people are watching what they are making and can extinguish with water or co2 before it becomes all consuming

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:36]
[In reply to Conor]
People do wander off, sometimes. Realistically it's a last-ditch solution

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:37]
I want to look at mounting options for the automatic one before we buy it.

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:37]
if it's reached 79degC, someone's wandered off

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:37]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
Agreed, I can email them for specs?

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:38]
Yeah. Let's get the rest ordered in the meantime though.

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:38]
Already getting a £10 discount on the first order, and free delivery over £60

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:38]
Does that placement and order sheet look sane though?

Conor, [03.12.17 19:39]
Is that a decision on two ABC and one CO2?

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:39]
Do the same place sell fire blankets?

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:40]
One for the kitchen might be a good idea

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:40]
Yep

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:41]
My worry with the automatic one is that the only place I can think to mount it would be *below* any potential fire, by the time that area has gotten to 79c the laser is totalled anyway.

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:41]
Electronics might not be, but yes

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:41]
I had a similar concern

Conor, [03.12.17 19:42]
Smoke detector for the kitchen area too

Conor, [03.12.17 19:42]
Because people will leave things in the hob

Conor, [03.12.17 19:42]
I'm still uneasy about a kitchen area to be honest

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:43]
1.2m x 1.2m for £15 or 
1.8m x 1.2m for £21.20 ?

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:44]
^^ for the fire blanket

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:46]
Heat alarm will likely work better than a smoke detector - http://simplyextinguishers.co.uk/firex-kf30-heat-alarm.html

Conor, [03.12.17 19:48]
[In reply to Chris Hilliard]
If that goes off the space is already greatly on fire

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:48]
No, they are standard in schools around kitchens etc

Conor, [03.12.17 19:49]
Difference is, and I've lived in halls with them, are that most places are properly built. Kitchen backing onto flammable wooden walls is a recipe for no space remaining

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:50]
A smoke alarm is likely to get explosively deconstructed though if it goes off too often

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:50]
or, worse, become the electronic equivilent to the boy who cried wolf

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:51]
Optical ones might solve a lot of that though

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:51]
Would a heat alarm even work given such a high ceiling in a room that's so cold?

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:51]
I wondered that too

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:51]
Given that they go off the ambient temperature afaik?

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:51]
maybe on a bracket ;)

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:52]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
Indeed they do

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:53]
They advise not to use optical ones in a kitchen enviroment

Conor, [03.12.17 19:54]
So? 
2xABC 
1xCO 
2xEmergency (unless we can get a part number pronto for the battery backup) 
1x smoke detector (I can buy one from wilko for about £5)

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:55]
I'm not convinced on the smoke detector.

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:55]
The standard ones get set off by steam. Entirely not suitable for a kitchen area

Conor, [03.12.17 19:55]
They exist in the corridors just fine so I think they will be okay

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:55]
If it's a fiver, let's try it

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:56]
If it's annoying, we throw it out a window

Conor, [03.12.17 19:56]
And yeah we can always swap it out of it does go off

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 19:57]
Cool, let's go with that then

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 19:59]
What's the total then?

Chris Hilliard, [03.12.17 20:00]
74.97 after discount

Bob Clough, [03.12.17 21:05]
Fire blankets are cheap, let's get one for the electronics bench too. That way you're not firing around tiny bits of hot metal if you're trying to put out a small electrical fire.

Greg Morris, [04.12.17 12:40]
Fire extinguishers: everything except the automatic one seems reasonable - I am yet to be convinced that the automatic one would be useful

Tamarisk, [04.12.17 12:41]
I don’t know if the fire blanket for the electronics bench was added.

Tamarisk, [04.12.17 12:41]
One each for woodworking and the laser might also make sense.

Tamarisk, [04.12.17 12:42]
Personally I won’t approve the automatic one until I have more evidence of its efficacy

Chris Hilliard, [04.12.17 12:44]
[In reply to Tamarisk]
The one by the electronics should be close enough to be used on the laser IMHO, but I'd agree with a wood working one

Tamarisk, [04.12.17 12:46]
How much are they?

Chris Hilliard, [04.12.17 12:46]
[In reply to Tamarisk]
Agreed. It was more of a "shiny, bob ad I talked about the concept when we first got the big laser"

Bob Clough, [04.12.17 12:46]
15 quid

Tamarisk, [04.12.17 12:46]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
Just buy 4 and distribute them round the space?

Chris Hilliard, [04.12.17 12:46]
Cool

Chris Hilliard, [04.12.17 12:47]
Metal workshop/CNC  would make sense

Bob Clough, [04.12.17 12:48]
I think a better solution would be a co2 tank and a button to turn off extraction and flood the chamber with co2, but thats out of scope for this conversation :)

Tamarisk, [04.12.17 12:48]
They’re cheap, non-destructive and it stops people going “shit what do I use on this very small fire I accidentally started “

Bob Clough, [04.12.17 12:48]
And reusable? ;)

Chris Hilliard, [04.12.17 12:49]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
We had discussed that too... I like that idea. But I also like the idea of trying assist gasses on the laser ;)

Chris Hilliard, [04.12.17 21:43]
Ok, vote on ordering the fire equipment - £74.97 including the discount

Bob Clough, [04.12.17 21:44]
What was the final list?

Chris Hilliard, [04.12.17 22:00]
2x 6kg ABC powder
1x 2kg CO2
4x 1.2m sq fire blanket

Also, Chris has requested a 2kg powder one for his unit, and will be paying us for it

Bob Clough, [04.12.17 22:01]
[In reply to Chris Hilliard]
Aye

Tamarisk, [04.12.17 22:04]
[In reply to Chris Hilliard]
Aye.

Conor, [04.12.17 22:07]
[In reply to Chris Hilliard]
👍

Greg Morris, [04.12.17 22:16]
Aye

Greg Morris, [04.12.17 22:22]
Do we assume that the person putting something up for a vote agrees with it?

Bob Clough, [04.12.17 22:22]
Generally, unless they've specified otherwise.

Chris Hilliard, [04.12.17 22:23]
Well, aye then ;)

# Smoke alarms after Fire Inspection

**Ayes:** All

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:11]
OK.  Fire man has been back in.  Short term, he wants us to get some wireless interlink smoke alarms from screwfix and put them around the space and units.  Cost for this will be ~ £250, greg is able to go to screwfix.  This means if the building doesnt get shut down, we'll be able to operate in the short term.  Are we happy to spend £250 on enough for all the units and claim the money back from maria?

Tamarisk, [05.12.17 16:12]
Youch

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:12]
In the long term, he wants maria to fit a proper fire system or hook us into the building's fire alarm system.  He's also very not pleased about the construction of the units, especially the OSB

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:12]
Though that will be brought up directly to maria

Kimball Johnson, [05.12.17 16:15]
whats the problem with the OSB?

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:15]
Flammability

Conor, [05.12.17 16:16]
What about weldy grindy? We can't blame the landlord for that

Conor, [05.12.17 16:16]
And woody dusty.

Conor, [05.12.17 16:16]
We'd need to cover that totally

Kimball Johnson, [05.12.17 16:20]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
Ah, so it needs cladding?

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:23]
We'll find out when maria comes back with what needs doing

Conor, [05.12.17 16:25]
I think now we need to: 
Assess if we can get cheaper detectors, and if we can return them once our unit is hooked up. 
Write a post on the forum about what happened for the sake of transparency.

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:25]
We need to get the detectors *tonight*

Chris Hilliard, [05.12.17 16:25]
[In reply to Conor]
We're planning to use intumecent paint on weldy grindy - we should be able to do the same with dusty

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:26]
£251.92 is the total cost, please approve.

Tamarisk, [05.12.17 16:26]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
Has Maria been called?

Tamarisk, [05.12.17 16:26]
Will we get it back?

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:27]
She's talking to the blokes at the moment, so i'll ring her after.

Chris Hilliard, [05.12.17 16:27]
We can also just get a spray for the OSB which does the same, I'll link when I'm not at the gym on an elyptical machine

Chris Hilliard, [05.12.17 16:27]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
Approved

Greg Morris, [05.12.17 16:27]
Aye

Conor, [05.12.17 16:28]
[In reply to Bob Clough]
Approve

Chris Hilliard, [05.12.17 16:29]
Also, I looked at those fire detectors on the fire extinguisher site sunday night - no cheaper there

Bob Clough, [05.12.17 16:44]
Maria will pay us back, we just need to invoice her when we've paid for them.  Greg is on his way to ashton now.

Tamarisk, [05.12.17 16:44]
Approved :)